A/P Tim Barnard

A/P  Ian Gordon

History

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GEM 2005M / HY2243

FILM AND HISTORY

 Discussion Forums

Discussing issues raised by the films, readings, and lectures is a crucial aspect of student participation in this module. Below are three examples of student discussions.

The issues under discussion:

Historians continually read differing accounts of the past, whether they are from films, literature, journals or even archival documents. They must then write their own interpretation from these sources, often choosing sides. This same dilemma also occurs when watching films with historical themes. The Once Upon a Time in China film series focuses on the exploits of Wong Fei Hung as he negotiates the changing society of late nineteenth and early twentieth century China. In the second film in the series, for example, he meets Dr Sun Yat-Sen and must deal with the White Lotus Sect and their anti-foreign beliefs. On the other hand, Rashomon is a fictional tale that deals with the problems of varied accounts.

As historians, how should we deal with the presence of historical figures in fictional situations, such as in the Once Upon a Time in China film series? Who is telling the truth in Rashomon?

Topic: The Question for Wong Fei Hung
From: C X L,SHIRLEY

i'm having some trouble interpreting the question for this film: "how should we deal with the presence of historical characters in a fictional situation?"

is the question asking us whether or not we should accept this presence?

the characters' presence means something; that's great -- it's like a "what-if" kind of concept.

but if we accept this does this mean we can also accept and use any meaningful fictional writing/depiction of historical actors, as a primary document?

this includes not just film, but all areas of written literature.

frankly, I'm ok with this idea, but can't shake off this feeling that it is also problematic.....because what is "meaningful" is very subjective anyway......can someone help?

...I think this course is designed to completely challenge our ideas of history.

PS: ...this isn't very related but i wish the film was in Cantonese.......the Mandarin dubbing is a little unnatural....my humble opinion, of course.

and 13th Aunt looks older than Fei Hong....she's supposed to be young.

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Topic: Re: The Question for Wong Fei Hung
From: O H C

I suppose we can only take historical personalities as symbolsor themes......since they are hardly reliable from reality to film......adding fiction is like only mudding the water.....

Suppose Sun Yat Sen was suppose to represent the spirit of nationalism during the period....(of course...rather hard to believe Feihong knows so much of shaolin's 72 arts^^:).........Wong Feihong I suppose became a myth maybe because pple needed to believe in something in times of despair?(er....I suppose thats why all myths are born...but)

Interesting to note how some notable characters from famous Wuxia novels aka Jinyong's Yi Tian Tu Long Ji actually existed(no...not Zhu yuan zhang the emperor....apparently Zhang Wu Ji was real.....a physician as well....hmm...but I digress^^:)

Er...point is....I suppose historical personalities portrayed in fiction are handled as perceptions of how pple view them in history?(Like most Chinese would think Sun Yat Sen was the father of modern china, while some might say he's a coward for hiding overseas while others died in a revolution he engineered.....)

Think the significant scene of how the Confucian gentleman comes to terms with the West is best embodied in the scene where Sun, Luke, Wong and Liang Kuang are treating the patient....definitely the symbolic amalgamation of East and West.....

PS. Well, I can't really understand Catonese that well......so....I suppose the dubbing helps me concentrate on the action scenes^^:.......abt Rosmund Kwan....well....she's Tsui Hark's gd fren...there only so much casts he can get for free.....like the animated A Chinese Ghost Story(All voices paid token sum^^:)

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Topic: Re: The Question for Wong Fei Hung
From: H S G

I think maybe the question is gearing us towards justifying the existence of historical characters in a fictional situation, and thus argue whether if films when containing such elements, is reliable or not, as inferences of the past, or sources of info for constructing history, etc.

Personally, I think it is best for us to take such portrayal of historical characters in fictional situations with a pinch of salt. For example, Dr Sun definitely don't dress the way he did as seen in the film, or the fact that it is almost impossible for him to come into contact with Wong Fei Hong at that time.

But we must understand that it is a movie that we are watching and not a documentary. Cos the film freely mixes fictional and non-fictional elements to capture the imaginations of audience, without the use of evidence for justifications.

But the use of historical characters within the fictional situations allows us to shed light on the past. Although it gives the audience a minute sense of history in representation, it induces the audience with a wider choice of inferences into the past, to justify the accuracies of such representaions.

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Topic: Re: The Question for Wong Fei Hung
From: S M,SOPHIE

I thought that the film, by committing the gross "error" of departing from a linear presentation of history (that is why Wong Fei Hung and Sun Yat Sen can meet) serves to depict exactly how people perceive things. Often, events in history are collapsed into a single entity and from there, interpretations of an identity is formed.

Thus, if we consider the discipline of History to be subjective, then there is room for a film as such to exist, not so much as to validate history, but rather to function as evidence of an individual's interpretation of the past. The film therefore, when considered in this light, suggests, at least for me, a strong desire to define a Chinese identity, by revisiting the past. Is a Chinese's past that marked by xenophobia, mysticism or revolution? It is in this quest that myths are formed as suggested by the god-like status Wong Fei Hung assumes. Wong in having a hand in shaping a history is like our surrogate, when we "re-shape" history through our interpretations.

Group 29

Topic: so you think you know kung fu, eh?
From: F  L JOYCE

i think that this film brings us to one of the fundamental issues of this module, that is, how film can be used to represent history. this becomes all the more problematic when we realize that oftentimes, many directors and/or scriptwriters take artistic liberties in interpreting historic data. they may opt to cut out a specific event or put in embellishments in their creation as they see fit. although many of these directors try to keep true to the actual data (the accuracy and objectivity of their historical source is also a matter of contention), they are also willing to sacrifice some things, as long as they keep to the "general idea". it is not uncommon, then, to find films whose historical figures are put in situations that they may have never found themselves in, or in environments that simply didn't exist when they were alive (like the White Lotus Sect in the movie). whereas the previous films relied heavily on historical issues, "once upon a time in china 2", used a real historical figure as the movie's protagonist. but this time, the film maker has taken bits and pieces of history to put together a film. the problem then lies in this: there are many who are naieve and susceptible and may be led to the wrong conclusions about history.

on the flipside, however, by using history as a basis to give flesh to films, people are afforded a refreshing take on familiar issues, or even allow them to expand their knowledge. this is the way i felt towards the film we just saw. growing up in a rapidly urbanizing and Westernizing society, there weren't many chances for me to be exposed to issues such as those that were shown in the movie. to me, martial arts, for example, is pretty much confined to the silver screen and to very specialized circles who have a particular interest in it (which obviously i'm not a part of). i've never even heard of wong fei-hung until last night (and i learned from my singaporean friend that he's actually quite a popular fellow around here...)! although i know that there are historical discrepancies to look out for in films like "once upon a time...", it still does offer people like me chances to expand their views and take on things. for example, i've a newfound respect for bollywood and chinese films (Lagaan), deepened by understanding what they can and do represent, with respect to history and to the audience's general psyche.

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Topic: Re: so you think you know kung fu, eh?
From: H L

uh-huh, I agree with Joyce about how such films help individuals to "expand their views on things". While points have been raised about the historical accuracies in the details of the film , I thought Tsui Hark did a credible job in pinpointing many of the concerns that I can imagine would be in the minds of the Chinese in that period where the scramble for concessions by the various foreign presence in the country. Save for Kung, the high priest of the White Lotuses ( horrible death, by the way,remniscent of the nanny in The Hand that Rocks the Cradle ) and his xenophobic followers,I could see why people did/felt the way they did, including the feelings of ambivalence of the Manchu official, (ditto about the horrible death, though I can't quite understand the mechanics of it but nevermind) .

The point is whether these accuracies in articulating the sentiments of the Chinese overrides the inaccuracies of the portrayal of the figures.Who is the "real" Wong Fei Hong or Sun Yat-Sen anyway? It seems that what they represent in the minds and memories of thousands has worked to contruct iconic identities of such figures that they are as "real" as the original person.

p/s" heh very funny topic title btw... can imagine it being spoken before the speaker launches into a "flying fox" stance :-)

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Topic: Re: so you think you know kung fu, eh?
From: F  L JOYCE

nice point about whether the inaccuracies in portraying the inaccuracies could be overlooked because of how the characters faithfully represent the prevailing sentiments of the people. movies are, first and foremost, meant to be viewed by the people of the here and now. and i think that if the movies aren't able to become significant for the people of it's generation, if they fail to speak to its immediate audience, then it has, in part, failed in its goal as a medium of expression and of art. one thing about historical figures taking on iconic identities...it's amazing how, especially during dire times, people can cling onto these figures that they can empathize with and elevate them to a status that is near god-like.

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Topic: Re: Everybody loves kung-fu fighting
From: O S H, CELINE

Before monday's lecture, i had no idea that Wong Fei Hong was a real character at all.

Nonetheless, I think that by using this mythical figure as the protagonist of a film that deals with Chinese history, it popularizes the subject. The audience is able to understand this period of chinese history using a protagonist they are familiar with. While in popularizing history through film, its accuracies are diluted, shown aptly in the movie, it is perhaps a worthwhile exchange in increasing people's awareness and interest in the subject.

At the same time, its inaccuracies would be less dominating if the portrayals in the film are dealt as fictional parallels of the actual circumstances at that time and as depictions of broad, general themes of the topic.

Group 34

Topic: historical figures in fictional settings
From: T W S ISAAC

I think when we use film as a source of history, we got to change the way we study this source of history...we cant see the film like we are reading a history text....history is not just abt dates, chronology, and hard facts....its abt how people feel during a period... the kind of questions people ask abt themselves and their circumstances, their enviroment....learning history is not just abt knowing facts.. but its abt understanding abt our past, understanding how we feel abt out past, its abt understand the changes that has happened, how we feel abt those changes....because of the nature of the visual medium i think film is very good in helping us learn and understand that type of history...so i guess sometimes we dont really have to take it so seriously thatt historical characters are fictionalized to a certain extents in movies...of course, there is the problem that the myths of the icons are taken as fact....and we might lose sight of the fact that the characters are there to just help us a more general type of history..but then again do the ordinary man really care abt all this nitty griity stuff of the historical figures in our general, unscholarly understanding of the past...

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: K L H

yup i agree with what you said...

but when the film was made, was it meant to be a source of history? i doubt so.. i guess it was meant as a source of entertainment. but this film involves historical figures and maybe some form of truth as to wat happened in the past.. when we use this type of film as a source of history, we must bear in mind that the the story is meant to be fictional though it may indirectly depicts the mood and atmosphere of the people in that era.

wat do u guys think?

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: K L W

ya.. i do agree with w l h had said.. most of the movies made nowadays are meant to be served as a source of entertainment. whether or not they presented the history factually is really not that impt. as long as the audience do get the idea of wat the pple of tat time had been through is already satisfactory enough. i mean at the very minimal, audience shld get the big picture and understand the past before going for concrete details of the history.

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: B P R, DELIA

for me i think that we shd focus not on the actual scenes in the story or the actions involved but look instead at the issues the character is dealin with n what he represents in the show .

in the case of wong fei hung, i think the issues involved are :1) corruption of ch'ing dynasty and the revolutions behind it 2) relationship between east(china) and west(britain) 3) chinese culture(martial arts) vs western culture(guns)

as for what he represents, i think in once upon a time in china II, he's a figure with confucius values, namely compassion, wisdom and generosity, well verse in both medicine and martial arts and a protector of the weak and poor against criminal gangs and government figures.

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: T W S ISAAC

true!

guess thats how film can be a source of history ....

when we dont just focus on the details like wat actually happened... is it factually accurate when it comes to the character ...but see the film as a way of understanding issues.....and the characters as a metaphor for these issues and social forces at work in the past at the time....

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: B P R, DELIA

i think basically the settings of the show is true to a certain extent, other than the interaction of certain characters( wong fei hung n sun yat sen), the intro of white lotus sect.(anything else?)

the settings r fictional but the issues r not . i guess the intro of these "fake" interactions and sect r to facilitate the discussion of the issues within the show. As i mention previously, the discrepencies bet what he did in the show n in real life is not as impt as the issues he rep.

i was wondering if we can look at what hje really does in real life n link it to his actions in reel life and see the similarity behind them? jus playin ard with this idea .. will give more concrete thoughts when i think more ..

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: T X

i feel that baiscallee the settings of the show coincide wif the era which the two historical figures lived n the white lotus sect, but as to whether these three had any direct connections is still doubtable.

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Topic: Re: historical figures in fictional settings
From: T X 

films can be considered a good form of history education as according to isaac it provides a visual medium. With a more visual understanding, we might be able to "feel" the feelings and ideas of people then better. But as such a form of visual transmission of ideas is man made, ideas can be thwarted along the way, afterall, presentation by film is restricted due many reasons be it economical n political.therefore i still feel strongly film is still very likely to be inaccurate.

yes textbooks info mite not be unbiased but it leaves more room for opinions to form. films being aided by visual effects has greater power of persuasion.

Updated September 30, 2002.